Conference Video

Engaging Audiences in Digital Spaces

This talk explores what audience engagement looks like online, successful digital marketing strategies, as well as online platforms that are popular with different audience demographics.

Panelists discuss the ways new technologies could be used to enhance the virtual art experience and how to empower our audiences to engage with us in new and unfamiliar ways.

How are we engaging audiences online? How will the initiatives born from this pandemic carry forward when rebuilding the industry?


Menon Dwarka

Born in Guyana, Menon returned to Canada after almost 20 years in New York City, serving as Music Program Director for the 92nd Street Y, Harlem School of the Arts and Greenwich House. Menon has also lead several Canadian organizations including 918 Bathurst, Arts Etobicoke and Soundstreams.

You can learn more about Menon on our Speakers Page.

Charity Chan

Charity is an Arts professional with a long-standing history of working across practices and communities to investigate and showcase the overlaps between the social and the cultural. She is currently the Performing Arts Manager at the Aga Khan Museum.

You can learn more about Charity on our Speakers Page.

Talk Video


June 26, 2020.

>> MIKITA: Good morning, Canada and the United States and good afternoon Europe. Welcome to our inaugural international arts conferenceCulture's Compass, how the industry keeps being day two. My name is Mikita Arloand I'll be your host for today. I want to thank everyone who joined usyesterday. We had a very saturated day. For those joining us today, we stillhave access to yesterday's sessions.

Just log in to crowd cast just as you did now and on the top leftand select the session you're interested in. I want to thank all of you cominghere today. Today we have almost 500 attendees from so many different countriesall over the world.

And it's almost 100 more than we had yesterday. So the bets arerising. Thanks to every single one of you. And now for a welcome word, I wantto invite the director of centre for creative business innovation and Humbergalleries, Jennifer Gordon. Jennifer, take it away.

>> JENNIFER: Thank you, Mikita.

Good morning, everyone. I'm so pleased to be here. It's going tobe such an exciting day.

I'll just do a little recap from yesterday because we seem to have100 new attendees here which is fabulous. We are thrilled with this. Welcomeall. So I'm the director at Humber's creative -- centre for creative businessinnovation and Humber Galleries. The concept for this conference came aboutafter COVID hit, and we were looking at some of the impacts happening from thefallout that was happening there. Students weren't able to find placements,live in person and the arts community was struggling with a number of issuesacross-the-board as everyone tried to adapt, and then, you know, added to thatbecame the antiracist issues that are impacting everyone, and we came togetherand thought this is a place where we need to have an open space, maybe a safespace for some dangerous dialogue inside here. So welcome, everyone, and we'rethrilled that you're here. The CCBI, just so you know is a new centre forinnovation within Humber and built around industry bringing us their problems.That can be anything to do with audience, marketing. It can be big questions orsmall specifics that need a fee for service type of a fix on something. Soanything that you have like that, feel free to reach out. I think there's lotsof things that are coming up as we move through this conference today to looktoward for future. We really need to thank our partners work in culture. Bigthanks to work in culture for supporting us and for mentoring us through thisand for doing all the amazing outreach they have accomplished. We would nothave the audience we have right now without you onboard and your expertise inassisting us. So big thank you to you. When we looked at university, I had afew thoughts that sort of popped up, and I'm going to run through these inrandom. If you have the same thoughts, that would be great. If you havedifferent thoughts, we'd love to hear them to. These are things that weresticking in my mind. Everything is so tied together. That's the first thing.None of these sessions stands alone. They all weave into each other withoverlapping themes and overlapping concerns. How do we ununtangle money andpower from gaze and access and value? And who determines and evaluates thosepieces? They're all woven together quite densely in the systems we currentlyhave set up. So this is a great opportunity to start looking at some of thosesystems and seeing how we can rebuild and recover in ways that are morehealthy, more inclusive and reflect I of who we are and want to be. The secondthing I thought of was no one, including the large what we traditionally thinkof as well-resourced organizations with longer histories have any idea how tomeasure success right now. In some ways, that's a little daunting, but in a lotof way, it's comforting. We're all struggling with the same thing. We movedeverything online. How do we evaluate this? What are the measures of success?What are these metrics? As we have shifted into this digital space. I thinkthere's a lot of opportunity here. The next piece we need to really considertoo is accessibility does not equal online. These two things are not the same.Online is one thing. Accessibility is another set of things. They overlap.

They interact, but they're not the same thing. And there's no oneside fits all solutions for all of this. We need to choose targeted impacts andpursue those ones that are closest to our hearts that we would want to see andattend and be involved with and that build a healthier society for us. I thinkthat's going to help draw the audience.

So I think it's time. It's time to measure multiple forms ofcapital. Traditionally, we have always measured money as the capital. And it'sinteresting, because in Humber week had a project going that was involvingtrying to set up metrics for measuring different types of capital am. It'scalled triple bottom line. Some governments in Saskatchewan have adopted this.For example, you could have a line that it's your finance. That's yourtraditional capital. You could have another line that could being socialimpact. It could be environmental footprint, different things like that.

It's time we set up a more holistic set of measurements fordifferent form of capital.

Opportunity. I'm excited. The fourth piece is that a lot of peopleare carrying a lot of weight right now. I'm looking at you bipok and othermarginalized communities. Hope can be a dangerous thing right now. For those ofus in power positions, let's take up some of that burden, do the work forourselves and really fight for antiracist and antioppression change fromwithin. Thanks to the activism panel for making space in the middle of thepandemic and anti-Black racism.

We know your time is an extremely valuable capital.

This is a nonsec Witter here, but those joining us yesterday,sober, day distance comedy seems to work. It was really interesting andcongrats to Ms. Tolev taking the risk and not being able to see her audienceand still delivering a bang-up performance. It's interesting to see howperformance is affected moving into the digital space and how we can work withthose and leverage those. Some artists don't want to perform virtually.

Big love and applause to those who wering willing to do that andthe performances have been outstanding. We have two more today that will bloweverybody away. Money is a tough topic.

That's my next point. A lot of people seem to want to avoidtalking about it right now. So thanks again to our panelists today on thatfinance discussion and on broaching that and what do we do about money in asituation like this that is so challenging for everyone? So and the last pointI have is there's a lot of volume online right now. Interestingly one of thediscussions we were having yesterday after we wrapped, there's not a lot of activityonline with the hashtags, and I was thinking about that. I'm thinking, youknow, we're already on a screen. We already see the chat. And it's differentfrom an in real life conference, because that way, you would be embodied andtalking to people, and then you might grab your device and start to tweet orget on other platforms. But right now, I think, you know, everyone is absorbedin this screen and doesn't really have the capacity to like double screen it.

That's my guess. Either that or hashtag is so brand-new thatpeople are not familiar with it.

Right? Those are my theories.

Those are my thoughts. I thank you all again for joining us.

Deep thanks to our partners Diane Davey in network and culty andYomi John and our mentors who helped out, including Yomi John, Colleen Smith,Diane Pelicon and Alexander Johnson.

Without further ado, I'll pass the floor to Regina Hardwick.

Over to you, Gina.

>> CHARITY: OK. I have to pull up my PowerPoint. So just aquick check. Can everybody see my screen? OK, good. OK. So I wanted to begin byintroducing myself and talking a bit about what we're actually here and thecontext of this part of the presentation to really do, and so we're thinkingabout the land spaces that we're all connected to, and so and the globalscheme, it is the dish. It provides for us and we're all eating out of onespoon. In the context of today, I want to honour additional histories and thetraditional territories we're all connected to. So to do that, though, I reallyneed to start with who I am as a person. So I want to begin by introducingmyself in my traditiontraditional language which is Anishnabe. Kwey kwey, [Speaking in a language other than English ]

That's a traditional greeting where I talk about all those thingsthat shape me. The first thing I talk about, it means

>> MIKITA: I don't have the presentation.

>> Regina: I have the presentation showing. Let me try toshare my screen again.

Oh, something weird happened.

Hopefully you can still see my screen when I show it. Can you seemy screen?

>> Yes, I can see it now.

>> Regina: Good, thank you.

Going back to introducing myself. I talked about that my name isGina. Another name is searching eagle. So that tells you about who I am and mypath and progression in life. The meaning around my name will change, but atthis current moment in my life, it's really about finding my own identity asainitiateAnishnabe kwey and part of my responsibilityings as a result of theeducation and teachings I've been given and the experiences I've had throughoutmy life and where I am in even my identities to feel safe in who they are.Create those instructors and staff and administrators within the context of ourinstitution can feel that safe and can really learn about who they are, learn aboutthe histories that shape them and determine how they're going to move forward.And then to create change on the ground in Indigenous communities.

That's a big part of my path and progression and my focus in liferight now. And so I also come from the Kichi. I'm a member of the partin clanand also related to the turtle clan on my mother's side. Through that littlebit there, what you begin to understand is I'm in fact a visitor within aterritory that is the treaty and traditional lands of the Mississaugas of thecredit. This heart is homeland to Anishnabe, Haudenosaunee and wen dAT peoples.I have to consider what does it mean to be a visitor within somebody else'sterritory? Because of everything I'm given within this territory, what are myresponsibilities to the people and to this place? To begin with, I think a lotabout where I am and where I'm situated.

Within Anishnabe traditions, we have an understanding that we areshaped by seven generations.

And so a lot of times, when we're thinking about everything we'redoing, we're thinking seven generations into the future. I like to think ofmyself as being situated in the middle of seven generations.

I'm shaped by my parents. I'm shaped by my grand parents and thoseancestors and their experiences, and so looking at the experiences of Algonquinpeople specifically, I understand that they have been experienced by thathistorical legacy of colonialism and that legacy has been passed down to mygrandfather specifically here. Up at the top here, this is -- it might be hardfor you to see. That's little me, and that's my grandfather. And so through mygrandfather, he passed teachings down to me. He passed a lot of teachings andexperiences and understandings down to my mother. And my mother probably is oneof the most important people in my life in terms of passing that knowledge onto me, because I have a mixed background. So on my biological father's side,I'mish Irish but I don't know a whole lot of what that means. I didn't grow upwith him. I grew up in an Araganza family. You could call him my stepfather buthe's been there since I was 3.

He was always Indigenous. Blood doesn't matter. It's thoseexperiences and people who shape you. Those experiences are a big part of who Iam. As a result of these histories, I'm part of a clan. I talked about beingpart of the Martin clan which is extended beyond my individual family, but I'malso a part of that family. At the centre of it, I land -- my homelandspecifically but also the territories I'm part of, they shape me. Me communityshapes me. My larger nation.

There's a lot of individual communities within the Algonquinnation, and then overall, I'm also Anishnabe. So there is a long-standinghistory of migration and coming into being that I'm learning about. And so onthe other side of that, through that history and that legacy that's beingpassed down to me from those generations before, that history of colonialism isin fact being written into the fibre of my being. But so is the strength andcourage of those ancestors and those people who came before. You know, they hadto find that strength to move on.

And through them, I learned how to get through the hard times.

And so I think there's a lot of value in those teachings that arepassed on to you from previous generations. So I'd like to invite you to thinka little bit about those things that have been passed on to you, those valuesthat have been passed on to you and those places that have really meant a lotto you. When acknowledging land, it's not only important to acknowledge theterritories that you're on but to acknowledge those territories that haveshaped you. And so I recognize that connection, and for right now, you know,I'm sitting within the territory, the traditional and treaty lands of the Mississaugasof the credit.

I've been in this territory for about 15 years. When you're in aterritory engaging with people and land for that long, it starts to shape you.I think that's become a large part of who I am as well. And so the missawingasof the credit are the Mitchy sawingyople. A lot of my reactions with them haveshaped me. All of those things interacting in myself are also shaping others. Irecognize I shape the -- in a very real level, I shape my daughter. So this --under where it says community right here, this is my daughter Jada and this is-- she was about 8 years old at this time. At this time in my community, wewere fighting against uranium exploration, and you know, like we were doing avery public newscast, and they wanted to really hear from the community, andshe asked to speak. And you know, she said the most profound thing at 8 yearsold. She talked about how important land was for her and that she wanted tohave, you know, our territory for her for when she grew up. At 7, 8 years old,thinking in that way, it was amazing, and that courage to get up and speak inthat way at a time when essentially people within her community are also beingcriminalized for their actions. That's a big thing for her to have thatlearning, and so she's had things that I never had, because of colonialism.

These generations now are getting those things back. This her now.Not too long ago.

She's 20 years old now. So she's growing this beautiful you thinkyo young woman and I have so much hope for the future, because I see what theyouth are doing today. I see the strength in the students that I work withevery day. I have an amazing team of staff they work with, and so I have a lotof hope for what the children of the future, you know, possibly my grandchildrenaway from hopefully a long way from now, and those descendents will inherit,but I do think that we need to really think critically about what we're doingnow to really create those futures. So I think a lot about like what am Ileaving for generations to come? In that thinking and connecting to land, Ialways think about what is it that I know about the history and contemporarypresence ever Indigenous peoples and the places I work, learn, and call home?So if I am working or going to school or livering within a particularterritory, and I want you to think about that in the context of wherever youare across the globe, what does it mean to connect? What does it mean to livein places, especially places you're a visitor to that territory. What are yourresponsibilities? What kind of relationships do you maintain with Indigenouspeoples in those territories? If you don't know who those Indigenous peoples inthat territory, that's a good place to start.

What relationships do I maintain with the territories themselves?

Do I get out on the land? Times we get so stuck in our erst laylives that we forget to get out there and breathe in fresh air and get out andexperience nature. I also think about, you know, what is it that I want tolearn? I'm going to think that throughout my entire life I'm always trying tolearn more.

And then what is it that I need to do right now? There needs to bethat action. So a lot of times, people get up and do a land acknowledgement andthey'll have a script they speak to, and a lot of times, it's, you know, likethis little tiny script that talks about the place and you don't bring too muchof yourself into it.

I think we need to get past that and be able to bring ourselvesinto the context of connecting with land. Because we are at the centre of it,we always bring ourselves. And so I think about that, how I can, you know, helpothers to support them in their learning journeys. And so one of the really bigunderstandings that has really really guided my thinking about how I connect toland is this dish with one spoon wampum.

These beads are made from the Cohog. They're white and generally apurple colour. This is historically, our governance and stories were containedwithin these wampum belts.

Traditionally it was between Haudeosaunee and Anishnabe peoples.It's where you share territories. Multiple people are coming together. So Ihave to recognize from the start that, you know, as I said, I'm a visitorwithin the treaty lands and traditional lands of the Mississaugas of the creditand this is shared between but now in the contemporary context of today, thatit's also about a source of interconnection for all people who live, learn, andwork here. This land provides this great dish. You can think of this dish as,you know, this regional territory, or you can think of the dish in the contextof the places that you live.

You know, so that dish or even the globe, the globe is our globaldish.

What it does it provides everything that we need to be healthy andwell. It provides animals, birds, fish, everything, water, everything we needto be well, trees, bees, and so if you think about that, everything that theland gives to us, the land and the water, everything that it gives to us,resipically, as human beings, we are expected to only take what we need.

We need to -- in thinking about those relationships, we need to berespectful and give back and ensure we're not taking too much and that we'reweaving the land in its abundance and viability so that can provide for generationsto come. I think this is especially important to think about in the context ofthe world that we're living in right now, where you know, there's environmentalissues that we're experiencing.

There's, you know, social issues that we're experiencing, and youknow, like many issues around race and class and so I can't help but thinkabout my daughter. So you'll notice that my daughter, you know, so in here,she's, you know, she's a different colour than me, and the one thing that shehas inherited that I -- so we're both Indigenous. The thing she's inheritedthat I necessarily have not is, you know, a layer of fear of just going outinto the world, and you know, worrying that as an Indigenous woman -- so inCanada, there's incidence of increasing numbers of missing and murderedIndigenous women.

As a parent, one thing that I do worry about is how safe she iswhen she goes out in the world.

I have to say -- and it has a lot to do with the colour of herskin. So her going out into the world, she has worries that I never had,because of the colour of my skin. And so these are things that I hope futuregenerations don't have to worry about. Like, you know, having conversationsabout how you get pulled over, and how to be safe in that situation. I hope wedon't have to have those conversations anymore. And so that's what I'm thinkingabout when I'm thinking about connecting with land. I'm also think being whatare those social structures that we're creating? What can we learn with land?What does land teach us? And about how we interact with each other. And so onething that really comes to mind is this quote that actually comes from chiefSeattle of Seattle. So this is thinking about that idea of living within sevengenerations that everything I do now isn't so much about me. It's really aboutlike what am I doing?

What's the legacy I'm leaving for those generations that have yetto come. So this quote seems to have a lot of relevance. And so you know, theideas that we do not inherit the earth from our ancestors.

We borrow it from our children.

If we are in fact borrowing the earth from our children, what areour responsibilities? What will the next generation inherit? Thinking about thestructures that we live in today, is this the world that we want those futuregenerations to inherit? And if it is, you know, so there's really great partsof the world that we live in. So there's a lot of things that we could reallybuild on and grow, and then there's some things that I think we really need tocritically look at. We need to look at ways in which we engage with land, andyou know, really developing more sustainable ways of connecting to the earthitself. And then connecting to each other, and so what is the legacy that eachof us hopes to leave? Those are the two thoughts I want to leave you with andI'll open it within the chat is to really let us know where you're calling inor connecting in from, you know. I know people are connecting in from allaround the globe. I'd love to hear where you might be from, and if you do knowwho the traditional peoplings are within the territories that you're in.

Indigenous peoples are across the globe. It's not just withinlittle pockets. There are Indigenous peoples across the globe. If you don'treally know what that traditional relationship might look like, who thoseIndigenous peoples would be within your territory, I encourage you to learnmore.

But feel free to leave some comments in the chat, just to let usknow where you're coming in from that, and with that, I want to say Meegwetchthat means thank you and thank you for listening. Meek.

>> MIKITA: Thank you so much, Regina for such a detailedblessing. A couple more things before we start. Feel free to comment in thechat on the right-hand side of the screen.

Please just keep your comments appropriate and on topic. You canalso create a discussion outside the conference chat by posting your thoughtson social media. So please just mention our official hashtag cultures compass2020 when you do so.

Please put any questions for the panelists in the ask a questionsec, and go through and upvote other questions you want answered. You're morethan welcome to participate in any pools that come up -- polls that come upbelowment and I want to thank two of our artists, Jacquie Comrie that isproviding the artwork we see before every session. And Squamish and VancouverBC and she's creating a visual artworks and live and you can see them on ourwebsite.

We're ready for the first session for today. First presentation isengaging audiences in digital spaces and our speakers are Menon Dwarka memberof the Canadian and city of Toronto's economic and cultural thought panel.Andette crAive strategies incubator.

Member of the inaugural of the Toronto Arts Council leaders lab.Member of the Toronto Arts Council's board nominating committee. Menon has ledseveral Canadian organizations includingincluding [not audible] Charity Chan isan arts professional with a long-standing history of working across practicesand communities. She's currently the performing arts manager at the Agahanmuseum. She's worked in Montreal, throughout the United States, Europe andLatin America, including time spent at organizations such as Ontario centre,production and others.

So Menon, Charity, we're ready to welcome you. The stage is yours.

>> MENON: Great. Thank you. I can only see -- I can't seeCharity yet. Is she available?

>> JENNIFER: She's just connecting now. She'll be on in amoment.

>> MENON: I apologise for that super long bio of mine at thefront. But I should say and we'll probably do a proper intro when Charity ishere, that part of why I have a lot of those things is that you know, I wentabroad for grad school to New York and stayed there for about 20 years and cameback after the passing of my mother. With all that experience in internationalconnectionconnections, when I returned back to Toronto, I had a lot ofinvitations to be parts of different organizations. So I see -- that's great,Kyla. And I also should say I feel super blessed to be connected with Humber,because they've been super supportive of many of the initiatives that I've beentaking on since I returned to, I think we started working together when I wasat arts Etobicoke. Here's Charity.

>> CHARITY: Sorry about that, Menon.

>> MENON: No worries. I had a bump-off too. I'm not surewhat happened. So I've been rambling until you got here. Why don't we do --should we ask the polls. Is that what we should do, Charity?

>> CHARITY: Let's start with the polls. We had something wewanted to open with originally, which is that when we had started talking, whenMenon and I first got together and started discussing the presentation and ourchat, one of the things we wanted to make sure and sort of give advanced noticeof to our audience, lovely audience from around the world is that thisparticular conversation we're about to have isn't really going to cover ahow-to for audience engagement on digital platforms.

We're both very happy and open to having conversations afterwardsand in private or after this conference either by e-mail or chats elsewhere.

Questions to the audience through the Q&A section. So...

>> MENON: I think, too, just to frame that, that it's not ahow-to. Many of you, if you've been following cultural industries in Canada forthe last few years, you might have seen when we had our SEFK questioncentennial situation, there was an organization that toured immerseve 3D filmexperiences and what was really interesting, because of the long time lines ofgovernment procurement, they bought a bunch of equipment and it was on theleading edge of what was available. By the time the project arrived, most ofthe technology had already been outdated. I think what we want to do -- and Ithink that was only a year on the outside.

What we want to focus on is not the particulars of today, but howwe can actually discuss some strategies and thinking around digitalpresentation that could be ongoing. So it's not just tied to this moment,although I'm sure Charity and I are both very interested to talk about ourexperiences with COVID-19.

We want to give a broad framing of what's going on the in theworld right now with digital.

Also, charity, maybe -- they did have a little intro of both of usin terms of our jobs. Maybe while the votes are coming in, could you speak alittle about yourself first.

>> CHARITY: I'm work as a performing arts manager. Mybackground was in performance, academic research, composition, creativeproduction. It was the arts has a tendency to attract people who enjoy wearingmany hats. I've now had the opportunity to wear several different hats forthis. Since COVID has started, and the shutdown has taken place here inToronto, one of the new hats I've been wearing is as a creative producer andprogrammer for performing arts for the museum without walls program and Ioversee the creative production and digital production for our current content.So it's been a very interesting three months, three and a half months of changeand growth and development. I know on the other hand, Menon has also beenactively busy working with the Soundstreams and the changes that have takenplace there.

>> MENON: Yes. I should apologise to my marketing managerwho is probably watching this, that the original intro did not include mySoundstreams moniker. I'm the executive director of Soundstreams as well as allthose other things.

There are two people online today who will talk about digitalculture who are in effect trained musicians and composers and there's probablysome tie-in between what we do as musical thinkers and structure builders insound as well as this essential -- this is essentially one about visualorganization and dissemination.

So I think we're going to -- if anyone can chime in with the hardof hearing, maybe charity, we can have a quick look at what's come in already.I think it's really interesting with one of the questions -- has anyonediscovered any new artists or artwork since the shutdown? 88% have said yes,much higher than I thought. If anybody can chime in with who they've discoveredin the chat, that would be really great. Charity, maybe you want to read outone of the other ones.

>> CHARITY: How many people have used a digital platform forarts consumption since the shutdown from COVID in mid-March and whichplatforms? One of the questions was other. Without too much surprise there'squite a lot of -- there's a few votes for social media platforms. Out ofcuriosity, which were the other platforms that people have made use of? If youcan make use of the chat.

>> MENON: I've seen a couple of Instagrams which issurprising.

One is as a visual artist.

That's interesting to think about. There's another Instagram.That's great. So why don't we begin talking --

one of the things, Charity and I had a prechat before this and oneof the things we found is that Charity's work in music has also been tied tospecific cultural groups.

>> CHARITY: It is currently with the mesoup because of thework on Islamic art and artists. We Vey social mandate for promoting pleuralism,cultural exchange and building bridges between cultures. It tends to touch baseon a lot of different cultural communities both here in Toronto because Torontois one of the most -- the most diverse city in the world and elsewhere abroadtoo.

>> MENON: I think before we kind of -- I think it'simportant for the two of us to acknowledge something in what we speak about andJennifer at the top of this broadcast today talked about the differencesbetween online and accessible, and I think that one of the things that weshould talk about, Charity, is the kind of aesthetics and culture that actuallyis assumed in this digital space. Do you have any thoughts about digital spacein general being connected to a specific vantage point?

>> CHARITY: One of the elements I know Jennifer brought upand I believe was touched on briefly yesterday in a conversation betweenDevyani, Julie and Gaetane, we have think of digital spaces as being fullyaccessible, as being something that anyone from any part of the world at anypoint can have access to, and there's a presumption that there's a built-inlevel of equitablity.

Part of the conversation has to do with what Menon and I werespeaking about is that digital platforms are fundamentally socialized. Who hasaccess, how they have access, a lot of times, our presumption for digitalplatforms is also that it's internet-based. And a lot of how we think abouttechnology tends to be very two dimensional. We don't necessarily think of itas being in a social or cultural sphere that has just as much breadth or detailor form of availability for forms of engagement for experience. Menon and Iwork very much in the realm of live performance and live production.

And we're fortunate in that when we do those presentations, a lotof that work is -- a lot of our work is already inherently --

the socializations and props are visible because we have spentmore time thinking about how those socializations take place, how audiencemembers interact or consume with what is being present on the stage and becausewe have moved to effectively a 2-dimensional space, it's not just about soundor performance or presentation. Is that we have to sort of now reconsider,where is the depth that exists on these digital platforms.

When we want to talk about audience engagement and interaction,you can't really address it in a very impactful or meaningful way withoutthinking about how a person's relationship with that platform, with that mediumis or currently exists.

>> MENON: And I'll add that I think one of the big thingsfor everyone to really consider as they are moving into the digital space, andI think oftentimes, our leadership, whether it's executive directors or boardsor donors, there's often a knee jerk reaction to digital space.

So I remember many many years ago when everybody was entering thedigital space, boards were excited to have websites for their organizations butthey had no thoughts about the content or how that actually pushes out there,their branding and their messaging. I think it's safe to say right now thateverybody who is in a performing arts organization, there's this real strong --well, you can't go to a theatre now, so let's just transfer this over todigital.

I think kind of just addressing what Charity was saying that thisis a different animal. And many of the ways that these performers wereconstructed, were never intended to be shown on a small screen. You know, thisis a -- I'm assuming that this is a PG-rated talk. If anyone is interested,there's a YouTube video of someone asking DavidDavid Lynch about what histhoughts are about seeing a movie on a phone. It's pretty short, but it'spretty brutal.

I think one of the things we really need to keep in mind is thatdigital accessibility is not like TV with a keyboard attached to it. And thereare tremendous opportunities, I think, for different way of communicating withour audiences and seeing material. Not just because it's interaction.

There's just -- television was an adaptation of theatre and mosttelevision came out of New York city which was the centre of theatre. We havethe opportunity to reinvent some things that will be truly engaging. Charity, Iwould be curious to hear if that review of material broadcast, have you beenbeginning that conversation as well?

>> CHARITY: We have to some extent. We had originallyplanned to have a virtual museum, but the time line for rolling out thisproject was fast forwarded very rapidly in the last couple of months. I got thefeeling that many arts organizations over the first few weeks during COVIDduring the shutdown had a lot of scrambling to see what they did, how they did,how they could continue reaching their audiences and donor members and the artsever los that make up their community. A lot of the initiatives that grew outwere artist led. A number of projects such as urgent and other programs whereartists would just take their cell phones and do recordings of themselvesperforming, and you got an opportunity -- T.O. lives and opportunityperformances.

You had a lot of opportunity to sort of have a morebehind-the-scenes look for what you can actually produce. And one of the thingsthat for us internally at the museum that's come up we are looking to presentthe entirety of the museum online as an experience so we can talk about howeverything -- so that the experience when you walk into the museum. So manypeople talk about it being a transformative space that they feel like they'vebeen transported to a different area. That in turn becomes a fundamentallyeducational experiencement for us, moving to a digital platform, you don'talways have that same opportunity, but it gives us a chance to showcaseelements that we're not always able to before. Intimate curator talks,discussions about how it's constructed and how performances are curated andprogrammed and put up on the stage.

>> MENON: Charity, is it visual arts and music? Are thereother things you were thinking about pushing out digitally?

>> CHARITY: We've been doing predominantly visual arts and music.We should elements of theatre we've been discussing as well. The differentdemographics and genres and disciplinedisciplines forms what kind of content wecan use. Menon, when we were speaking, we ended up with the conclusion that inmany respects in the past three and a half months in Canada and the past sixmonths around the world, there hasn't necessarily been any substantivetechnological innovation.

A lot of the platforms that we're using, whether that's Spotify oraugmented reality, all those platforms and technologies are already present.And so part of the interesting thing about this current experience is thatthere has been a scramble on the part of the consumer, and the audience as wellto make use of and figure out how to use these platforms and theseopportunities. One of the challenges we have faced at least for us at themuseum in terms of reaching an audience is social media platforms are notnecessarily accessible around the world.

We have a strong international audience.

>> MENON: I think you were saying what's app is part of yourcontributionn. Is that right?

>> CHARITY: It is. Often time when we talk about technology,we think of it high tech. We think about the internet and laptops and cellphones and social media. We think about it as virtual reality, augmentedrealities. 3d printing.

Technology is also, again, to go back to what we were talkingabout earlier.

It's socialized. It's a social form of communication.

One of the things we've realised is relying on a very personal andwhat might be considered more low tech form of communication has been much moreeffective and engaging. In addition to social media channels or enewslettersand websites, we have a team that sends out the information for our programmingevery week through what's app channels to various what's app groups.

>> MENON: And are you able to see the reach of those easily?

How do you know if those --

>> CHARITY: It's interesting.

One of the things we had talked about is how do you track it?

How do you measure success in the digital world? You can go toFacebook and YouTube and get stA tittics. You have click through rates and openrates.

Is that a measure of engagement?

>> MENON: I think that's an issue that we've been grapplingwith at Soundstreams, because you know, because of where performanceorganization, and we have paused our season because, you know, we're stilltrying to figure out what's feasible next year. We thought what can we do totake the place of concerts that would keep our subscribers connected to us? Andso we're launching this insider program.

And in many ways, Charity, it addresses something you've beensaying about it doesn't use any new technology.

And really it's a way -- we've communicated to a small group ofpeople that we want to rereenvisage a new way forward for sound streams and wewant input from the people who care about us. What this digital initiative isreally going to do is put me and my team in a room with a small group of peopleso we can have real connection. I think when it comes down to this, and I'mvery interested in issues of digital connection and I have a long history ofdealing with technology and the arts.

But you know, it's kind of like talking about the hammers andnails instead of talking about the architecture of your dream house. Right? Ithink that it's good to have people who are versed in those things, but what wereally need to do is at the end of the day, say how much engagement are wegoing to get?

When I mean engagement, it's not something I can roll up into acaddeck form or something like that.

I really want to know was someone able to better understand wherewe think we're goinggoing? And can I better understand who is on the receivingend of this thing?

And I think before, there were genuine efforts about measuringseat numbers and having public talk backs and things like that.

But I think understanding what our fans are desirous of and wherethey want us to lead and really engaging with feedback, that's where we've beenleaning.

I can something if I can take a minute to talk about a specificexample. Like many organizations, you know, obvious to the 477 people onlineright now, I'm a person of colour, visible minority here in Canada, and whenthe events of Mr. Floyd's murder happened, there was a lot of pressure onorganizations to say something publicly. But I also wanted to make sure thatthere were a number of organizations that put things out -- they used theirsocial channels to say they were in solidarity but said nothing about their hiringpractices.

If anyone is curious, I worked with the Canadian opera company tocraft their response and I think it's a mea culpa. We did some stuff that waswrong.

Here's how we're going to fix it going forward. We want to be partof this. We did something where we publish someday content in a newsletter inour social channels about Steve Reish who is a composer who normally wouldassociate with us. We presented lots of Steve Reish. We're looking to celebratehis 85th birthday next season. We picked a very specific piece to talk about inthat newsletter and it's called come out.

It's a piece in which he was using audio that he collected fromNew York City court system, and it was part of an interview of a young man whohad been wrongly accused of murder. He and a group of -- I can't remember thename, but if it was the Harlem 6 or something like that. It was in the late60s.

And he took this loop of dialogue where one of the boys said, Ihad to poke myself to show the police where the bruisebruised blood -- to comeout to show them. And so that phrase come out to show them was interesting inits rhythmic pattern. The context of that piece, and it was another context ofanother young African American male being used accused and beaten by police. Wedidn't put ourselves in the middle of the context of that piece or thebackground. We just shared that. It was really interesting.

We had a tremendous amount of feedback of people saying hey, thiswas really brave. This is a lot of information, and I had no idea, and kudos toyou for finding something that was connected to the moment that wasn't just,you know, a hot-button topic, something that we or a statement that would havejust easily aligned us and let us off the hook. So I know that was a longresponse to that thought, but I really feel that there are ways to connect withpeople, and the digital is just a means of doing this. But having opportunitiesto actually hear back from the people that support us are really important.

Any thoughts or response to that, Charity, about those points Imade?

>> CHARITY: It's funny. As you were -- right before you werespeaking, one of the thoughts that was going through my head is was how do wedefine interaction. We've talked about it a little bit and from a grant reportingor financial or administrative perspective, there might be statistics. How dowe value it? How did we measure interaction even in the real world?

>> MENON: Yeah.

>> CHARITY: And how do you --

because really when you're in the arts, you're not doing it tosell tickets. You're not doing it to have the number of seats:

You have to collect and report those stA -- statisticsics? Is itan accurate measure of engagement? Is it an accurate measure of what theintention, whether it's Steve Reish piece or a digital replication from thefolio of a manuscript? What is the intention behind it? Art is supposed toeducate and transform and broaden horizons and a digital platform and audienceengagement means in some cases we might not see that interaction and might notsee that impact. Social media has the capacity to offer so much easy access forcalls to action, whether that's for addressing social injustice, for addressingengagement with the arts. But what does that -- how does that reflect in termsof actionable -- in term ever real-life actions. One of the things that's comeup is if you have a digital platform that presumably offers equal access topeople around the world at any given point in time and that gives you theopportunity to present artwork or artists even that represent differentheritages, different cultures that might not have the same degree of accesselsewhere, because we are speaking about systemic imbalance and systemicinjustice, then -- what happens with those changes and that access andopportunity on the digital platform isn't reflected in real-world institutions?

>> MENON: No.

When you were talking about how do we measure engagement, youlooped it back to the actual essence of what it is. I think how I am hoping tomeasure engagement is that when the community gathers, is there a sense thatthere's someone missing at the table if we aren't there? I think that's thereal test of -- now we're in a crisis. But even before this, if their decisionis made on how we organize ourselves as a society and what kind of resources,if they're not saying where are those guys? I think that's a real measure ofwho is part of the discourse of the day? Many times we measure those successesin ticket sales and the number of zeros after our operating grants. And I thinkthat you and I both have seen many organizations that receive quite a lot ofsupport and have a lot of ticket sales but when it comes down to actuallyshaping how we build the world, many ever those organizations aren't there. Infact they're notably absent from what's going on. We can keep a moving targetof what engagement really is, but when I think about how we measure connection,right, it sounds corny and maybe shows that I am -- I have a good like 20 yearson you. Think about family. I think about how do we measure the connection ofour mothers and fathers and our siblings. Right? And I think how we know wehave family is when there's a crisis, they're there. They're actually presentand willing to give and support and share all the things they've had fromwhatever contact they've had. I would hope as art-enlightened people whenpeople need us or organizations that they the artists over the history of artmaking that we can bring that light into these conversations in a way that'snot measured in the way it's failed us so often, the things you have talkedabout.

It's not about ticket sales or, you know, it's about can wesupport others beyond our specific work.

>> CHARITY: It's supporting, and it's also, I feel, we'vehad many conversations, you and I, and also just the industry in general, aboutmore broadly about that this is an opportunity for people to rebuild, toreimagine, to recreate a new future. And we do have a tendency to think that --OK, we can replicate what's happened before in our day to day experience, inour lived experience of the physical realm and move it virtual and that somehowthat becomes the new normal online. If we have this opportunity to say OK,well, we have these new technologies and these opportunities for connection,what can we do with it? And is it necessarily on as broad reaching a scale aswe might like to think. There's 20 different people tuning in from 20 differentcountries. And one of the interesting things that is taking place is a fewmonths ago, our education department at the museum launched a school fieldtrip, a virtual field trip tour with an organization in Mobasa and they wereable to bring a group of school children who were otherwise physically not beable to visit the museum into the space to have an engaged 1-on-1 Interac witha curator touring our galleries.

Another project that one ever our partner and IT team has beenworking on is working through mixed reality and augmented reality and 3Dprinting for our objects and artifacts. Speaking for other organizations intown, someplace like tapestry opera has launched a virtual opera experience.

All of those, I think a couple ever years ago, the city of Torontopresented a piece of virtual reality piece where they imagined what would happenif nature took over Toronto, the world. And what's exciting in all thoseinstances, those projects had the opportunity to engage audiences in a way thatwasn't just about numbers. It physically or quite literally dropped them into anew reimagined reality. And that's one of the benefits of a digital platformespecially when talking about interaction and engagement. Sometimes there'svery -- low stakes engagement.

You send an emoji and type a comment. Thank you very much for thecomments, everyone. So there's a level of low stakes engagement. Then there'sthe higher stakes engagement is once you have the opportunity to see somethingdifferent than what you have access to otherwise, how does that shape or changewhat you know? The web hasn't gotten any larger or smaller necessarily in thelast three months. It's been more focused on it. And our value judgments andvalue systems for what we see and consume and interact with digital technologyhas also substantially increased.

>> MENON: I want to make sure that one very simple low-techexample of technology's use in connecting us which is -- and I think you cameto one of the last ones before COVID shut us down. Me and Kelly at theconSebconSeb conservatory run this gathering where we could meet other people.When COVID hit, we couldn't do it. We took it online. The first initial oneswere good.

But after George Floyd's murder, I made a concerted effort toinvite a number of my American friends on. I realised for a lot of us inCanada, this was looking through the glass at something that was evolving overthere, and there wasn't a touch point to actually make it real in a lot ofways. And so we had this now finally the technology allowed us to have peoplefrom all over the world be there.

What was really interesting, we were able -- we did it over zoomand we were able to use breakout rooms. For those 20 minutes, people got toknow each other much better than if we did it in person. That protected spaceof we're four people and here for however many minutes, and what I do know isthat it built really sense of community for those moments we were able not ableto do in person, because the dynamics of us moving towards the biggest fish inthe room is always a temptation at these events and we stopped that in this thingand allow people to connect in the random breakout rooms. So even though that'snot groundbreaking to anybody, what I would say to anyone that's listening isthat this is so needed now to pull people together into rooms and talk aboutwhat's happening. Because I think as Charity was saying, I think from thosechats we're building will naturally occur that we won't go back to the way thatthings were beforehand.

>> CHARITY: I don't think it will go back to how it wasbeforehand and it's also a good time for us to reflect on what kind of choicesdigital technology offers us. Because that's been foregrounded. Every day wemake multiple choices, what we're going to attend to, what we're going to wear,how we listen, who we're going to invite, whether we pay for a ticket or theticket is so expensive. So many choices and that informs the type of engagementwe look for or measure or seek in term of arts and arts production. When youhave a digital platform and in theory, everything is always accessible, thosedecisions and that decision making is foregrounded. And it goes back a it isbit to speaking about this concept of digital culture, and digital content asbeing a brand-new stage, something that we need to program and curate andcreate specifically for, and not just simply treat it as a substitute for alive experience during this time when we can't host something in person.

>> MENON: Uh-huh. Charity, can I ask you, and we talked alittle bit about this earlier too. We asked the audience about what they werewatching and what they are connecting with digitally. Do you want to shareanything that you may have seen or you're doing in these COVID times in term ofdigital arts access?

>> CHARITY: I have to admit a lot of the videos I've beenwatching have to be the ones I review for posting are if our museum website.Something I really enjoyed taking a look at is the Alvinile products and thereare groups that have been facilitating live streams of performancesspecifically from India as well. For me, one of the great opportunities is thatyou can see what people try to create given the current constraints. I lovethat right now, artists are really working to see how they can push thoseboundaries, change the shape of what we understand and what we experience, andto sort of --

they, on their own are redefining the terms and expectations towhat we think of as live performance for music.

>> MENON: What I was saying, it's interesting that eventhough Charity and both come out of a music space, we've been watching a lot ofAley on YouTube. What was shocking to me, I'm a huge fan of Alvin Aley and theNew York City ballet and thought of them as coequal EverestEverests in themountain range of dance. But gosh, Aley has spent so much more time thinkingabout capturing their dance in video that the production itself is of a muchhigher quality.

But I have to say, shockingly to me, the level of dance that wascoming out of Aley was shocking to me about how much more incredible it wasthan even the heights of the New York City ballet. For me, that was a reallyinteresting thing. On the downside of that, I'm kind of glad to see --initially, there were a lot of bedroom composer or bedroom musicians kind ofdoing things online, and man, it was just like -- OK. I remember why I don't goto these shows. I do have to say surprisingly, and she's not someone I wouldhave thought would have been delivering at such a high level, but the singer --American singer and pianist Nora Jones is doing a daily YouTube cast, and she'sdestroying in that thing too.

It's so amazing to see someone -- anyone with talent being able todeliver at such a personal and direct way. So yeah. I'm kind of surprised aboutthat too. Charity, do you think -- I think we should talk really quickly,because we're probably going to the end, just about how digital has rolled outin an organization. We talk a little bit about that regard to job descriptionand work-life balance and things like that.

>> CHARITY: Right now, it is the case of all hands on deckat our organization. And I chuckle, because I think that tends to always be thecase at arts institutions in general. But for us moving forward, one of themain questions we've had is what do we look to -- how is this new reality we'reall dealing with sustainable for the future? Right? Is it a staffing resource?Is it a creative resource? Is it a rereconceptualization of how we occupyspace? Because the reality is that we will virtual and [not audible] neverdiminish. It may not grow at the same speed or rate we've come last to in thelast several months but we'll be moving everybody towards a hybrid realitywhere there's a physical museum and performances and you can visit and take alook at art and listen to some music but there's also going to be a virtual onewhere in some ways, the possibilities are limitless.

But in other ways, they're not, because we are bounded by certainrestrictions that are in place, whether that is internet access availablearound the world, whether or not certain social media platforms are easy tonavigate for individuals of different demographics or abilities, whether or notsocial media platforms or various platforms period are accessible in differentgeographies. We were discussing and one of the comments that did come up, it tendsto be used very much enteringly but not so much within Canada. It was one ofthe discussions that one of our conversations a thought came up which was inCanada and North America, the United States, Canada, we tend to think ofcertain ways of connecting with people as being the norm.

Facebook messenger, e-mail, Zoom calls now. But in so many otherregions of the world, that's not necessarily the case.

>> MENON: I think, too, and Charity and I did speak aboutthis offline, and I think it's important for all of us, especially the folksthat are kind of emerging outing colleges like Humber, that what's going onright now is that we're entering this new medium in which almost nobody who isworking in these organizations is trained or understands the language they'respeaking. It's almost as if on and I spoke about this easier.

When people made the leap from theatre to TV. It would be likeshooting TV with no one who has knowledge of how cameras or lighting works.Because these platforms are so user friendly, we often skip the step of -- OK,well, how does this program or how does this initiative translate digitally?How does it feel? What are we actually saying? I don't want to put too finite apoint on this. The fact that Charity and I are locked into two separate boxes.

It's actually -- it's a choice that someone has made to divide ushere and allow us a way to be less conversational than if we were looking ateach other, if there was another vantage point.

But I think oftentimes, decisions being made about what happens indigital are made by people that if you asked around the table, and I wouldreally urge everyone to do this. Are you guys actually watching any of this onyour own? Are you in part of this conversation? Or is this something that you justthink we should be doing?

Because I hope we all have the courage to say we don't actuallyknow what we're doing here.

And we need some help. Maybe there's room for people who haveaudio and visual vocabulary that translates well into the digital space andmaybe we should get those people in our company, consult with them or whatever.

What I will say is this thing of Charity and I looking at that, Ihope that's not going to be --

that somehow, we'll be able to have a much more interactive --

we are sharing space on your screens. But clearly it's delineatedand that's so against, I think, what this medium should be doing.

>> Just a quick friendly reminder that you have ten moreminutes.

>> MENON: OK. Thanks.

>> CHARITY: Thank you. I'll keep this short. One of thethings I was going to say is in terms of this delineation, Menon, you'respeaking about, one of the interesting things is that digital culture doesn'tallow us -- digital platforms doesn't currently allow us to make up for therichness of a real-world experience.

That doesn't make it a poorer experience, but if you and I weresitting down in a café or at one of your gatherings, we would have theopportunity to to not only speaking to each other.

We would be jumping in. Would be someone else coming by and sightand sound and texture and those experiences are not just -- those elements arenot just missing from the digital platform in many respects.

Those Lepps -- elements can't be replicated. The intimacy youassume you have -- I remember having an interesting conversation yesterday withone of the performers that's going to be part of our flamenco festival thisfall and we were discussing how the experience ever production had to have alive component which could be live streamed or recorded and edited to presentonline as well as to an in-person audience assuming we're able to do this inNovember. But also it had to be virtual she was speaking about how she hadtried to create a sense of intimacy with the audience during some of her liveperformances and livestreams from home. You can't do it the same way. You can'treach out and touch somebody. You can't choose to turn away, to not look, tomake a whisper, to your partner beside you. Oh, I really love when thathappened. And one of the things that this digital medium takes away from us insome regards, and while also offering is the option of choice. Right? I thinkabout product products like, for example, the met opera or Alvin Avey. How isthis framed?

Which section of the choreography are you capturing?

Do you see the conductor? Is this a wide angle shot? Even thebehind-the-scenes moment.

Who you film and who do you talk to? The real-world experiencegoing to a live production or art experience has those element, the sight, thesound, the smell, the feeling of the chair. Those are all part that add a valueelements towards the live experience. When you're on a screen, you as theaudience member do not have that agency.

Right? It doesn't matter --

right now, unless someone is --

I don't know if you can do it.

You are stuck with two windows and there's Menon and there'smyself. If you choose to look somewhere else issue there's really no -- you'renot looking at the presentation anymore.

And so it's interesting that digital platforms, while in manyrespects increase audience agency, they also decrease audience agencysimultaneously, just in different formats. One of the interesting things I didfind was that as soon as the shutdown started, it became fairly apparent in thefirst four weeks -- and this is one of the reasons we have this poll is askinghow did you choose what you wanted to see? And did you discover anything new?Because social media, especially if that's our primary form of arts consumptionthese days is a little bit of a self-created bubble.

>> MENON: Uh-huh.

>> CHARITY: So your interests on Facebook. You follow thesepeople on Instagram. We've heard of TikTok and they tell you what you might seefirst and foremost. You end up being in a self-created bubble that's a feedbackLooB loop. One of the exciting things about live performance even as anaudience member, you make what do I see?

Do I buy this ticket? Who do I go with? There's always thatelement of the unknown.

It's hard to leave in the middle of a performance. You can, butit's challenging. So you are routinely in the real world and live performance,you're routinely confronted with something you don't know, something that isnew. And currently, digital platforms, especially as we've been using them inthe last few months hasn't necessarily foregrounded that.

>> MENON: Yeah, I think it's a big huge piece that ismissing.

I'm thinking of a couple ever things -- when my brother, when wewere teenagers, sometimes he would bring home records and I would say where didthat come from? He would say I don't know anything about this band but look atthis cover. They might be interesting. That we could run into stuff that's ahuge problem to figure out. Also the ability for us to step away from contentin the mitts middle if we're having a momentary dip. I saw a video yesterdayabout the film "magnolia."

If you're watching it online, you might click away before theplague of frogs falls on everyone in the film. You would really miss a hugething, and also I just wanted to say when you're talking about thingssurrounding performance. With digital scoops out like smell and other things,I'm thinking about the Indian performances you were talking about recollect,and if you couldn't smell incense, how strangely disembodied that would be. Iremember going to lots of dance performances in New York and one being the lastCunningham company show and being in that space andeeing all those people inthe dance community hugging each and crying and realising this huge era isending. How would that be replicated online.

Right now they just put the show up. You wouldn't have any otherconnection to it. So I think how people with come together in a loose way wherethey have choice about how they move and interact. That would be a huge opportunity.

I know it's so nerve-racking for people to walk up to people at aconcert you don't know and hey hey, you're interested in this and so am I.Maybe we need to figure out how do that in a messy space.

>> CHARITY: Speaking of messy spaces, it's a fancifulnotion, one of my dream realities for purchasing arts and arts in --

performing arts and arts in general, the Pokemon, one of myfavourite things to see were groups of five to 20 people in person out inpublic chasing down Pokemon together, chasing down virtual Pokemon together.

I know it's silly because it's a video game, but part of it isalso, well, how do you create community and how do you create a sharedexperience that makes the virtual as real as the real world?

>> MENON: Uh-huh. When I first went back to Canada, my firstgig was on Bathurst. I remember it was a Pokemon go site and people startedshowing up. The board was like should we do something about this? We're agathering space. People are coming and stepping in and splitting. So it was --it's something like that. We have to figure out how to add to what we'recurrently offering. That would be great.

>> CHARITY: I do think Pokemon go is a great place to sortof end this conversation.

>> MENON: Maybe, yeah.

>> CHARITY: But again, if anyone has questions afterwards,happy to answer or address offline or through questions or chat.

>> MENON: We're easily findable on social media. I'd love toconnect with anyone, and I have to say this opportunity has been really greatfor me, because I didn't know Charity that well before. I think she's anincredible person. I'm looking forward to seeing her career develop. We're solucky to have her in Toronto.

>> CHARITY: I have to say Menon, I've had a really greatexperience working with you, talking with you. These conversations we've hadespecially in the last week or so have been somest of the most illuminating andinsightful and fulfilling.

>> MENON: That's great.

>> CHARITY: Thank you.

>> MIKITA: Thank you. I'm personally a Pokemon go fan. Itwas good to bring it up. Thank you. So now please I want to say to all of youthat we're staying right where we are now, and there's no need to go to anotherstation because my colleague Amanda will now introduce our artists for today.

She'll call you there. So please stay here. Stay tuned.

See you soon.

Welcome and Keynote Address Chat Log

Below is a log of the live chat that occurred during this talk. The format is:




Emojis that were used in the chat will appear between colons, e.g., :smile:

Chat Log:


Culture's Compass

Good morning everyone! Welcome to an exciting day  2 of Culture's Compass: How The Industry Keeps Beating!


Maria Duncan

Good morning!


Natalka Duncan

Excited for day 2!!


Kyla Ross

Good morning everyone! looking forward to the  day's panels and performances!


Culture's Compass

Welcome everybody! We will be going live shortly!  :blush:


Maria Morgunova

good morning



good morning! Happy Friday everyone


Ulana Pidzamecky

Good morning! Building community in the digital  space - such an important discussion!



Good afternoon, from a rainy Scotland!


Jerry Smith

:thumbs up:


Diane Davy

Thanks Jennifer - hooray Yomi!


Julien Rutherford

Hi everyone,
 This is a reminder that the official conference hashtag is  #CulturesCompass2020 on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and LinkedIn.
 We want to hear your thoughts and feedback. Let's keep the conversation  going.
 I hope you all enjoy day 2 of the conference!


Jennifer Gordon



Jennifer Gordon

Yay! Welcome


Natalka Duncan

Not anymore!


Chris Coxson



Natalka Duncan

The presentation isn't showing!


Menon Dwarka



Liz Pead

not yet


Mila Dechef-Tweddle

Not yet...



not the presentation


Charity Chan



Jennifer Gordon



Jennifer Gordon



Natalka Duncan



Charity Chan



Menon Dwarka



Liz Pead



Angela Songui



Mila Dechef-Tweddle

Yes, perfect. Thank you!



I clicked on the Friday presentation but I am  seeing a presentation from yesterday?


Chris Coxson

Click on Session 7



Chris, I did.


Culture's Compass

Hi Ariel, you're in the right session! Gina is  doing another land acknowledgment today before we get started  :slightly_smiling_face:


Chris Coxson

Are you hearing and seeing Regina?





Chris Coxson

Yes, similar to yesterday


Mila Dechef-Tweddle

Thank you so much for sharing this, Regina.  (Connecting from Toronto).


Michelle Buchholz

Sne Kal Yegh...on the territories of the  Musqueam, Squamish, Tsleil Waututh Nations


Chris Coxson

Thank you!


Ulana Pidzamecky

Thank you, Regina, for reminding us to look  within ourselves about what matters.


Kyla Ross

You are entitled to it Menon! you earned it


Charity Chan

Apologies, I can't seem to get my video on -- I'm  online already.


Jennifer Gordon

Miigwech Gina:heart:  I'm from outside Bobcaygeon, and grew up  beside Curve Lake Whetung Anishinaabe. My history is half white Scottish  settler descent, and half unknown


Culture's Compass

Trying again to invite you onscreen Charity


Culture's Compass

Yay! Welcome!


Jennifer Gordon

Awww thanks, Menon We are super fans of you &  Charity!


Jennifer Gordon

I mainly discover new artists via my professional  and personal friends


Tim Crouch

I'm not angry :slightly_smiling_face: Love you,  boss!


Liz Pead



Tim Crouch

Spotify has been huge for me to find new artists


Amy Dennis



Evan Bowman



Kendra Miller

Instagram and spotify!


Natalka Duncan






Kyla Ross

instagram and tiktok






instagram and spotify


Liz Pead

jwrightcheney and buffalobettytradingco in the  last day or so


Chris Coxson

YouTube, WeAreOne Global Film Festival


Allan Sansom

Personal network -- other presenters, artists,  agents



Youtube and Spotify for me!


Allan Sansom

I haven't explored Spotify. How can one find out  about new artists there?


Jennifer Dick

I'd like to qualify my access by saying I have  teenagers in my house...Tik Toc, Spotify,


Jennifer Gordon

Digital deserts are an issue


Julian Sleath

I use Bandcamp a lot. Spotify reluctantly as they  pay little to the artists.


Kristen Turner

Allan for Spotify - there is a feature called  "Radio" where if you play a song you enjoy, it will use that to  play other songs that people who like that have also liked. Additionally, it  makes playlists of "new releases" or "taste-breakers" -  more stuff you might like that is recently released or stuff that is  deliberately different from what it thinks you like


Allan Sansom

Thanks, @Kristen! Another platform for this  dinosaur to get familiar with...


Ulana Pidzamecky

See also


Jennifer Gordon

Great point, Menon


Julien Rutherford

I use Shazam to discover music that I hear in  movies/TV shows/out in the world. When you Shazam a song, it automatically  adds that song to a Shazam playlist on your Spotify.


Jennifer Gordon

Scale plays such a role



Shazam is so underrated! a great help when you're  on the go and hear a song in the mall or at a restaurant


Hana Glaser

I agree Amanda I use that feature all the time to  connect to my LinkedIn



Shazam is the best app!


Hana Glaser

I mean spotify


Michelle Yeung

There is an assumption that the public will all  be able to access digital content and or technology but that is not the case.


Ulana Pidzamecky

Internationally, not just WhatsApp, but also  Viber


Melissa Domingos

A fantastic point- Are digital statistics truly a  measure of engagement from audiences.


Ulana Pidzamecky

Hybrid approaches are also part of the choice mix  going forward.


Natalka Duncan

Yes, Menon!! :clap:



That's interesting that the museum is using  WhatsApp. I haven't heard of many arts institutions using it in Canada to  talk to their audiences, however, it's huge in many counties Latin America.  Not just to communicate but also to do business


Kristen Turner

Agreed Menon - I often saw a lot of words but not  a lot of true reflection or actionable plans from companies


Melissa Domingos

Completely agree. A message of solidarity is not  enough.


Mila Dechef-Tweddle

Yes! Many organizations fell short of indicating  what actions they would take to ensure their organizations were more  inclusive and/or to proactively support BIPOC communities.


Chris Coxson

I work for many cultural organizations on  contract. TO Live, Harbourfront, TIFF, Redpath Waterfront Festival all issued  memos on what they had always done, and what they need to work on going  forward in regards to anti-racism hiring and work culture. Harbourfronts


Chris Coxson

mandate has been, and will be multiculturalism,  diversity and inclusion


Ulana Pidzamecky

Yes, raw, but vital ways.


Hana Glaser

Couldn't agree more Menon many companies were  quick to place a statement without taking ownership of their years of wrong  doing


Chris Coxson

They actually do take action at Harbourfront  & TIFF though They walk the walk, not just talk with no action


Jennifer Gordon

and build community


Jennifer Gordon

well said Charity


Kristen Turner

That's great to hear Chris. Those are such  important conversations and it's good to know there's several examples of  genuine engagement from places like Harbourfront and TIFF.  I remember you saying yesterday as well  that it's not a quick process and they've been working at it for several  years.


Chris Coxson

Thanks Kirtsten! It's one o f the reasons I've  worked for both of them. Work cultures, especially in the arts who really  encourage and DO SOMETHING rather than give lip service to these ongoing  injustices.


Hana Glaser

Love to hear it Chris ! Those are the best kind  of places to work for :slightly_smiling_face:


Ulana Pidzamecky

Candy, L., & Ferguson, S. (Eds.). (2014). Interactive  experience in the digital age: evaluating new art practice. Springer Science  & Business Media.;  Walmsley, B.  (2016). From arts marketing to audience enrichment: How digital engagement  can deepen and democratize artistic exchange with audiences. Poetics, 58,  66-78.


Allan Sansom

Lost the feed in Ottawa


Julien Rutherford

I'm in Ottawa as well. I refreshed the page and  it worked again.


Allan Sansom

Thanks, @Julien. That worked


Jennifer Gordon

Our poets who are reading next are coming to you  from New York



Thanks Ulana


Ulana Pidzamecky

You are involved in creating intersecting  learning communities


Ulana Pidzamecky

The digital space makes such communities uniquely  possible


Ulana Pidzamecky

Very important point, Charity


Ulana Pidzamecky

...audiences redefining the terms


Angela Songui



Jennifer Gordon

the learning curves have been steep and without  time to reflect


Cheryl Stone

Charity, your insights about social platforms and  accessibility are blowing my mind.


Liz Pead

I agree with you there Charity!


Liz Pead

(and Cheryl)


Ulana Pidzamecky

reimagining the art installation as the norm  shifts the paradigm, opening possibilities


Jennifer Gordon

Ha! Yes, Menon. Full agreement



"Are you watching this on your  own?"--great question


Ulana Pidzamecky

Important point about the individual as a  distinct participant


Chris Coxson

One thing about creatives, though, is they often  try new things, explore possibilities, troubeshoot how to create something  through trial * error, experimenting. This is a strength


Liz Pead

The digital is too 'clean' and devoid of many  interstitial opportunities...


Jennifer Gordon

Smellovision; what happened to that?


Liz Pead



Ulana Pidzamecky to translate the 'textures' of live  experience is the next frontier


Jennifer Gordon



Jennifer Gordon

Excellent point, Charity. I've just now realized  how much control is on the hands of the creators of virtual experience


Liz Pead

right? our agency is controlled.


Jennifer Gordon

Losing the choice around you how embody the  experience


Kristen Turner



Julien Rutherford

During digital events such as this, I sometimes  forget that digital connection and in-person, physical connection are  fundamentally different experiences. I was inclined to answer the "are  you watching this alone?" question with a yes. But I am watching this  alone.


Julien Rutherford

*with a no I mean


Liz Pead

it makes me feel like I'm part of Bladerunner,  especially with the idea of the self-created Bubble that Charity just  described.


Maria Duncan

"who do I go with" - I so miss the  post-experience conversations!


Ulana Pidzamecky

ah yes, serendipity!


Kristen Turner

Maria - do you think those can ever be replicated  digitally?  E.g., I've been to  "meetings" after virtual conferences but undecided on if they feel  as helpful


Ulana Pidzamecky

asynchronous conversation after the fact can and  does happen, but like with any relationship, requires ongoing cultivation


Kristen Turner

Yes!! Random people would come up and offer to  help me find rare pokemon during that craze. It was so cool


Liz Pead

I still play pokemon go! IT is still fun!!!


Maria Duncan

Hm... I'd be interested in trying that! I find  that conversations enhance my interpretations and diversifies the context of  the topics


Jennifer Gordon

Let's do it!


Kyla Ross

There are several questions in the question box


Maria Duncan

Thank you both!!


Kyla Ross

yay! thanks Menon and Charity!



Thank you for an excellent presentation!


Cheryl Stone

:clap: thank you!!


Liz Pead

Thank you both for sharing and pushing  boundaries!!!


Ulana Pidzamecky

Excellent multilogue - clearly fun, enjoyment,  stimulation can translate to the digital space!


Kristen Turner

Yes thank you both!! This was fantastic!





Melissa Domingos

Thank you! This was so insightful.


Culture's Compass

Stay tuned for some poetry by Nicole Sealey and  John Murillo!


Mila Dechef-Tweddle

Thank you!